John: Okay, first up, congratulations on Suffer No Guilt. Truly a massive follow up and an all around impressive album. Did it take all two years to record this, or were you doing other shit following the release of The Awakening?
Karl: No, basically we had the songs, or parts there of at about the same time we did Like a Plague Upon the Land for Chris Barnes. We put the whole record together between August and December of `05. And we started recording in Jan/Feb. Between The Awakening and Suffer, we did a mini tour of the US and a full European tour, and the EP, as well as some demo sessions and what not. We weren`t as active then as we`d have liked to have been. But I don`t think it was an extremely long time between records. Personally, I tend to think that taking 12 - 18 months to let ideas fully come about is a good idea. I wish that we`d taken another six months to record each of the records! Letting songs fully mature is something that I am very into. I actually like playing the old stuff more every time because there are newer ways of phrasing things or new ideas that constantly come up. I`m into writing new things, but I really like to play the old stuff still. I`d even like to re-record some of that older material and see how it`s come along.
John: Regarding the 20 minute epic "God Wills It" - what led to choosing the crusades as the topic? And how much research did you put into the lyrics? Any good recommendations for those who want to know more about the crusades?
Karl: Originally when Jason wrote the music he kept wanting it to have a Roman theme lyrically. But for some reason I was less into that idea, and frankly I was wanting him to write some lyrics for a song, so one day we were hanging out, I think we were either talking about the film Kingdom of Heaven or we had just seen it... Anyway, I suggested that we call the song "God Wills It;" I`d hoped that Jason would be keen on doing the lyrics as he`s obsessed with the Knights Templar and whatnot. But as it turned out I ended up doing them; it wasn`t really finished until we were actually doing the vocal tracks. We had the melody, but no real words, just ideas for where basic things should go. Digging up my college history texts and then doing a few google searches yielded enough information to write a cohesive epic. I don`t pretend that it`s anything more that a cursory reading... there are people who`ve done books on the subject; three verses is hardly enough to discuss the topic in it`s entirety.
The lyrical idea was to do a song that didn`t just toe the line that revisionist historians have drawn: I didn`t want to deny atrocities or laud the Crusaders as heroes... however to also not condemn them. Because the events such as the massacre in Jerusalem were not out of place for the days, not even to the supposedly enlightened Muslims. Popular thought would lead one to believe that it was just a one sided situation: evil Europeans oppressing and invading Muslim land. No mention of how Spain somehow stopped being a former province of the Roman Empire, no explanation as to how it is that in a few hundred years Islam exploded out of the Arabian peninsula to conquer what was Persia, the Bulgar region, Spain... . Fact is that they were and are an aggressive force in the world. If Charles Martel hadn`t crushed the Moors at Tours in what would be France, we wouldn`t be here, not like this. No one thinks about Constantinople anymore, or the sacking of Vienna... Sicily. I`m not going to tell you that cooking and eating people was cool... but I`m also not going to damn the Crusaders out of hand. It`s not like there wasn`t a protracted war with Islam going on. They were people of a time and from a place that was far more brutal than any of us could ever imagine. I fully expect that one day we`ll get to taste that kind of living again. People for all of their posturing haven`t changed much, and anyone who tells you different bears watching. As far as sources go, A Concise History of the Crusades and Fighting for Christendom are both okay... but so much bullshit is rampant about the damn things. Really history is basically that it`s �his� story. Lots of people see things in different ways. The truth depends on where you stand.
John: And before I get too far ahead of myself, give me the background on the band - when you formed, what your influences are, and all that other stuff.
Karl: I started the band back in `98. It was pretty much a struggling effort back then to find people to play in the band. Never compromising can make things like keeping drummers and bassists difficult... sigh...
I could bore you with all that, but I`d rather focus on now, really... Right now I`d say that we are a "Heavy Metal band focused on playing music inspired by Saint Vitus, Manilla Road, Cirith Ungol, Rainbow, Manowar, and the likes." I`d say, right now, those are the bands that most influence what is going on. In the past it was all the usual suspects: Pentagram, Trouble, Revelation... but it`s more metalized these days.
John: You`ve made some disparaging references to the stoner rock scene in the past - what, in your opinion, do you feel is lacking in that genre of music?
Karl: Well, first off there ARE bands that I do like that have been lumped into the genre: High on Fire being one... but other than that, I generally just don`t like anything about it. I don`t care for the attitude, the sound, the lyrical topics. It`s basically a catch all genre tag as well. Homeless grunge guys, people afraid of just being heavy metal fans or players or what have you, high energy rock guys, pseudo sothern rock, cast off AmRep stuff... it`s just weird, like some kind of anachronism.
I never got all worked up over Kyuss... I did try to get into the stuff, bought that Orange Goblin record Time Traveling Blues, was bemused at best by Queens of The Stone Age. And at the gigs it was like a bunch of randoms "YEAH!" on stage, and there was a lot of "RAWKIN`" and a lot of "PBR." It just seemed as if people had completely forgotten, or never bothered to get hip to the fact that Judas Priest made psychedelic rock pointless.
You had a lot of people who you know had Number of the Beast and Kill Em` All as kids trying their best to pretend those records and that aesthetic weren`t as relevant as the fucking Stooges. I like The Stooges, but I won`t lie to you and tell you that The Stooges have been more of a touchstone in my life than Slayer. Anyone my age or a few years older even who tells me something like that is either a moron, a liar, or just trying too hard... Lynyrd Skynyrd is okay, that`s it - OK. Not as good as Metallica... they can`t mean as much to a heavy metal player or as a fan. I guess that`s just where the gap is. I`m a metal head, and stoner rock types just aren`t. Or they are a different breed. Maybe more open minded - hell, why not? I don`t have an open mind. I won`t just sit and give shit a chance. I have boogers to pick, you know? Everybody has a band now. And I don`t like fluff music. So a band like Pinkie Tuscadero`s White Knuckle Ass Fuck or Super Heavy Goat Ass is something that right off the bat I`m going to ignore. Nothing going on there I want to be a part of. I dig rock music, I like punk. But all that shit is just fucking weak compared to fucking metal.
It`s like that shit on Sleezegrinder about Cirith Ungol, where the dude basically slags them off for The Stooges. What kind of dildo is going to pick The Stooges over Ungol? I have all kinds of shit by both bands. I LOVE Iggy. But come thee fuck on. That`s like passing on roast beef for Spam. You know?
As far as the comments go, through the years there have been a lot of comments thrown back and forth. No one ever seemed to notice that we put Minsk and ARCH on Templars of Doom, or that we`ve played tons of gigs with Earthride, a band we just helped to tour Europe for the first time. That`s what kind of dickheads we are. But all that shit gets ignored by armchair critics and IT dudes who can`t hack it.
We can be friends and not like each other`s music, I`ve done gigs for all types of bands and always tried to help people. So what: I bang on people for having dumb ass points of view that can`t be defended. I`d do a gig for them, or hook them up with someone who would, you know? So I guess I`m an ass? Fine, I`m an ass.
John: On the flip side, you`re frequently described as "classic" or "traditional" doom ? what is it about that genre that makes it more emotionally satisfying to you?
Karl: Initially the choice, to play True Doom Metal, was utterly contrarian: I hated what was going on so I started to make music that I wanted to hear, and that`s it. Some people just get together and jam, in fact that seems to be how most people do things. They have a rough idea and go with it. I had a very specific idea in mind of what I wanted. If the band I wanted to do had been realized it would have been way different I think. In the end the few compromises that were made to get started were worth it. But there were times when I just told people that it was not ever going to work out.
You have to realize that my only musical experience before that was playing bass (very poorly, I think) in a band called The Keep... I was a singer before that, in punk bands and then back in school in some of the most pathetic cover bands ever. The kind of cover bands where you have to twist a guys arm to do �Paranoid� in a set that also included Alice in Chains and Nirvana and fucking way gayer shit than that. I started playing guitar in `98. That`s it. I have only been playing for nine years.
As to what is most satisfying, well. Just the act of playing music is it`s own reward. Doom is killer to play, though strictly speaking we have never just played by-the-numbers doom. There has always been a lot of just plain old heavy metal in there. I can see doing a more thrash based record in the future, a more prog record... But if and when these things happen the will have to have the TGoS sound, in the same way that you can always tell Slayer from any other band. I think that we are starting to get there, sonically speaking... though if I may toot my own horn for a second, I think that there was always a bit of a signature to the music. Jason`s bass playing, the way that I phrase melody lines on the guitar. I think that we always had a bit of a different slant on things, it just feels more pronounced now.
John: Wait a second, you`re not just traditional doom, you`re part of the Circle of True Doom. For the record, because there`s been a shit ton of rumor mongering and Internet babble about it, what`s the Circle all about?
Karl: Raping the horses and riding off on the women? I don`t know what it`s all about anymore. It was a group of bands and labels helping each other to spread the word about music they were making... now? Giving a few really sad, sad souls something to hate? I don`t know if there is a CoTD anymore, and frankly I don`t care. Well, I only care because it might make a few idiots angry. So whenever a gimp is sad because they aren`t the center of attention, whenever someone who can`t play makes fun of Manowar, where ever justice is threatened... we`ll be there.
In the end, if you see the CoTD seal of approval on a record, chances are you aren`t going to be bombarded with something horrid. Well, maybe our production values... heh. But Orodruin... no, they ain`t a joke. Reverend Bizarre were noted for having some bastard heavy shit on their records.
John: Who are the other CoTD bands?
Karl: Well, that`s hard to say, who knows? I think it`s just Orodruin, Mirror of Deception, I think Peter`s new band Lord Vicar will be involved to some degree, Las Cruces, at least George, asked after their Templars performance and without a fucking doubt they are more than doom enough, maybe Warning if they still care about that shit, and us if we still do - I have to ask Jason.
Maybe Pale Divine - they more than fit the bill, pass muster, whatever, Buch Balich is officially a part for life, if he so chooses... . There isn`t a governing body or anything. While Heaven Wept was unsure if their new stuff would be doom enough... for that matter I wonder if our more heavy metal approach these days makes us doom enough anymore. Some have called us "battle metal" recently. We are The Gates of Slumber, that`s enough for me.
It was just something that was fun. And is if it still pisses people off.
John: Orodruin`s among the CoTD bands, but when I saw them at the Boston Doom and Grind Festival, they were all having a damn good time on stage. Doesn`t smiling while performing negate the dour world outlook of doom metal?
Karl: I don`t know, we smile on stage a lot too. We have a lot of fun doing this, at least I do. Doom metal isn`t dour it`s uplifting, well maybe epic doom metal is dour... but then Messiah always seemed to be having a fucking blast. Iommi`s ever present pleasant smile while he threw the sign, Dio`s affable stage manner. Ozzy`s whole schtick. There are elements where it is a show, but it`s not a pose. Only bungs act like they want to kill the world while they are doing a gig.
John: One of the knocks against the CoTD is a seemingly rigid adherence to one definition of doom and metal. Is that even true, and if so, doesn`t that sort of "musical purity" ultimately stifle creativity?
Karl: Well, I don`t know, is it? I mean do TGoS sound like Orodruin, or Mirror of Deception, or While Heaven Wept? There are some similarities... but on a whole, no. I`ve never for a second felt stifled in any way by any definition, not at all. And if I did I would throw away the definition without a second thought.
Look at in this light: one of the major bullet points in the elusive CoTD charter is no keyboards, yet four of the bands most associated with the CoTD have used key on their records. Duh. Two plus two does not equal five; it`s six. If you follow.
Or better to quote Hott Rod "Just when you think you`ve got the answers, I change the questions." (It`ll take some of you low watts the rest of your lives to figure that one out. So don`t bother to try, your dunce cap is in the mail, no wait... it`s there - go look).
John: What would you consider "false" doom and why?
Karl: What should I say? The Sword? I imagine that`s what`s expected... I couldn`t care less at the moment. True = a bunch of real dudes; false = a bunch of haircuts or beards with idiots hanging off the back.
Dio = true.
John: From what I`ve gathered, Europe`s been a lot kinder to you for tours, to the point where your upcoming Euro tour forced you to cancel your appearance at Doom or Be Doomed. Do you think the US will ever gain a more serious appreciation of good ol` fashioned doom metal? And do you have any major US touring plans?
Karl: Doom or Be Doomed was one that I was really lukewarm on accepting, because we`d talked at length about trying to do DSR [Doom Shall Rise � ed] again. it was a risky proposition and we were going to try and do both, but personal commitments came up and it was just too expensive to try and do it. Jason`s daughter had her first communion that weekend, and Bob`s job has really laid some shit down on him - Jason was going to fly home after the gig, but when Bob had his issues come up as well and he would have had to fly out as well... it just became too expensive to do. I really hated canceling the gig - if there is another one I`d love to play. That said: Europe has been fucking killer to us, They were just a week ago, again. The crowds there have always been high energy head banging fuckers, especially in Germany... the Nuremberg Metal Militia was out in force again, and it`s always cool to see them. DSR was amazing, as was Italy! Fucking awesome! It really pissed me off that we didn`t play in Belgium or Holland this time, and I`m constantly irked that we can`t get back up to Scandinavia... hopefully soon.
I think that the US has some real dyed in the wool metal heads. NYC is always killer to play. Pittsburgh and Cleveland as well. Cincinnati has always been good to us. Milwaukee was cool. We played to a lot of great people on that tour with Earthride. The US has a lot of killer fucking people. What makes the US hard are the plains states. We get a lot of requests to play out west, and we`d love to, but driving 24 hours... we just don`t have the contacts to book it and know we`d be able to make the whole thing! We are sort of hobbled by not having a US release, no ads here and no booking agent. The DIY thing is harder to pull off here. This summer we are going to hit the road with Centurion`s Ghost on the east coast, hopefully more will be coming.
John: One of the band`s that you toured with in the past was Thee Plague of Gentlemen. What was your reaction when you found out that front man Steve McMillan was arrested on charges of child rape?
Karl: Honestly, I was completely dumbfounded. And I was instantly so sorry for his girlfriend. It was pretty sad for her and his family and friends. Let alone the kids, and their families! Just thinking about that whole time now is a bit weird. Jason was really flipped out by it because We were trying to get Thee Plague to come over and do another US tour, Steve would have been around Jason`s kids. It kind of calls into question the value of doing this shit. All this ain`t real... it`s just tones on a guitar and shit like that. Family and kids, that`s real shit. It really just calls a lot of shit out of the corners of the underground. A lot of the pervert shit like the whole porngore grind thing, or the shit that Macabre does or Church of Misery? What`s cool about being a sick fuck? Or the whole drugged out of your shit dirty needle scene. It`s gross, what`s the point? I mean, I guess if someone hasn`t got a lot going on above the shoulders then cool, rawk on mang, bang some rat poison for me. Whatever... I`d rather not fill my head with that kind of shit.
Steve tried to write me from jail, through a Belgian friend. I basically told him that unless he could 100% refute all the claims against him that I never wanted to hear from him again. I`ve not heard anything from him since. I hope the kids he fucked with are able to find some sort of peace, and I hope that he finds the same thing one day. I`ve worked in a treatment center for sex offenders, so I can`t pull the usual line where you call for castration and death and all that shit... though there is a real part of me that sees eye to eye with that sentiment. I know that those people can turn their lives around. I don`t know man. It`s a pretty heavy subject, you are dealing with all kinds of very real issues. Those kids are going to have major issues at some point. And it`s almost certain that Steve had similar shit happen in his past... yeah, what can I say?
John: Do you think it`s possible to separate the artist from the art? Not only as it pertains to Thee Plague of Gentlemen, but in general.
Karl: In some instances yes it is... but not in all of them. With Thee Plague I can`t. But then I know all the guys in the band really well... Roman Polanski, it`s easy to forget that he`s wanted for that shit... maybe because I don`t know him... maybe because film is less personal. I wouldn`t give anyone shit for liking Thee Plague... I wouldn`t even tell them about Steve. It`s a dead issue. It`s really a case by case basis for me. I don`t care about some shit. Other shit I do care about. I think Steve`s case is about the worst thing that one can do. I don`t care about murders... racism. None of that shit really matters. I still like Michael Richards... Mike Myers too. And Martin Lawrence. And I`m still going to watch Mad Max when that comes on. You know?
John: Okay, this turned grim. What were your top five releases from 2006?
Karl: Upwards of Endtime - Sadly Never Fore
Cianide - Ashes to Dust
Motorhead - Kiss of Death
Iron Maiden - A Matter of Life and Death
Witchfinder General - Live in `83
John: What`s the definitive Conan work?
Karl: Howard Story - The Frost Giants Daughter
Non Howard Story - Conan The Renegade
Painting: "The Berserker" by Frank Frazetta
Song(s): Manilla Road - �The Frost Giants Daughter (i.The Riddle of Steel/ii.Behind the Veil/iii.When Giants Fall)�
Right on man, thank you for doing this interview. I hope that it gives people something more to talk about.
